Episode Transcript
Glenn Harper:
Hello everyone. Welcome to another edition of the Empowering Entrepreneurs Podcast. I’m Glenn
Glenn Harper:
Harper. Julie Smith. What’s going on, Julie? Well, you know, it’s back to school.
Glenn Harper:
Oh, it’s the best. Not to date the podcast, but all the kids are back
Julie Smith:
in school, which means we don’t stop running until next May, I
Julie Smith:
think. That’s our rule. That’s part of the deal. That’s a package deal. It’s all
Glenn Harper:
good. Well, we’re having a great time with our podcast today. We
Glenn Harper:
have to do it a little bit later in the day than normally bright and
Glenn Harper:
early because our guest has been so gracious to kind of join us from the
Glenn Harper:
West Coast. So we had to go a little bit later. So, Thank you for
Glenn Harper:
that. Which means we don’t have any coffee. So we’re currently sharing a bottle of
Julie Smith:
water. We don’t know what to do with our hands because we’re used to drinking,
Glenn Harper:
but it’s all good. We’ll figure this thing out. Well, let me do a nice
Glenn Harper:
introduction. I’d like to introduce a fellow entrepreneur, Tamina Watson,
Glenn Harper:
founder of Watson Immigration Law. She’s a member of the Forbes Business Council,
Glenn Harper:
host of Tamina Talks Immigration podcast, author of The Startup Visa, and
Glenn Harper:
CEO of Pinky’s Shoe Bags. Last but not least, she doesn’t
Glenn Harper:
look like She would be in this classification based on age, but
Glenn Harper:
she is way deep into the birdwatching and bird photography. We will deliver all
Glenn Harper:
the— delve into all these things and see what makes Tamina tick and why she
Glenn Harper:
has this unrivaled passion to be involved in everything. Tamina is
Glenn Harper:
the person you call when you get lucky in the immigration lottery and your number
Glenn Harper:
is called. She will take that new immigrant citizen and show them how to
Glenn Harper:
become the best version of themselves by being an entrepreneur, which if any of us
Glenn Harper:
can think about it, would be next to impossible to know what to do if
Glenn Harper:
we became a citizen of another country and wanted to run a business. Impossible.
Glenn Harper:
Her expertise is turnkey as her satisfaction comes from helping others get the opportunity
Glenn Harper:
that she received many, many years ago. Allegedly, she says she
Glenn Harper:
enjoys her free time in nature, but I think we can all agree that in
Glenn Harper:
her free time, it is about quality, not quantity of time, as she has a
Glenn Harper:
mission to serve her clients. Apparently, immigration is controversial these
Glenn Harper:
days, and we cannot wait to jump in and discuss some different perspectives. Sit
Glenn Harper:
back and enjoy the ride as we pick Tamina’s brain. Thanks, Tamina,
Glenn Harper:
for being on our show. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you
Tamina Watson:
for such a beautiful introduction. I’m so grateful. We have to give him a few
Julie Smith:
minutes to like catch his breath after that one. I, I don’t put the commas
Glenn Harper:
in, so I just keep talking. Yeah, we can tell. No, we,
Glenn Harper:
we, uh, we on this podcast, we love talking to
Glenn Harper:
people, what makes them tick, how they got where they got, you know, what is
Glenn Harper:
it that they do and what ultimately is their vision and purpose and all those
Glenn Harper:
things. And, you know, there’s a lot of controversial content out there on you,
Glenn Harper:
just a boatload, but ultimately, I’m totally kidding. We’re trying to
Glenn Harper:
figure out, you know, where did you come from? Where’d you get here? And it
Glenn Harper:
says you grew up in London. Is that true? That is true, yes. Born and
Glenn Harper:
raised there? That’s correct, yes. Well, you don’t
Glenn Harper:
have a very London-type accent. So what’s going on with that? Did you get
Glenn Harper:
converted when you moved to America or what? So this is my
Tamina Watson:
21st year in the United States. I was born in the
Tamina Watson:
UK. And then for a few years, I did live in Bangladesh. That’s where my
Tamina Watson:
parents had immigrated from. And then I had a Sleepless
Tamina Watson:
in Seattle moment when I met my husband. I was here
Tamina Watson:
on vacation, and I had a blind date set up. And
Tamina Watson:
then it was long distance, and eventually I got married and I moved here. And
Tamina Watson:
this is my 21st year of being married, 21st year of being in the
Tamina Watson:
United States, and 20th year of being an immigration lawyer.
Julie Smith:
Wait, this is just right on par for what’s happening in today’s world. I know
Julie Smith:
Glenn wants to start with your childhood, so he’ll go back. But what do you
Julie Smith:
think about Meghan and Harry moving back?
Tamina Watson:
I have no idea what to think about that, to be honest, because, you know,
Tamina Watson:
it’s, it’s so interesting that I, I was
Tamina Watson:
a young kid when Harry was born and William were born.
Tamina Watson:
And, you know, Diana, I remember being, you know, 7 or 8 years
Tamina Watson:
old when Diana’s wedding was live on television. Um, it
Tamina Watson:
was, it was so surreal to see Harry move to the US
Tamina Watson:
because, you know, the royal family doesn’t move here. I don’t know what
Tamina Watson:
to think of it. It’s— I think it’s going to unfold in real time. I
Tamina Watson:
think when I saw the headlines yesterday, I thought, what on earth? You know, how
Tamina Watson:
is she going to make it there? But, you know, we’ll
Tamina Watson:
see. We’ll all see in real time. This is why I’m not allowed to be
Julie Smith:
in charge of the podcast direction, so I’ll hand it back over. No, no, that’s
Glenn Harper:
a great question. And again, people that are in
Glenn Harper:
England, they follow this stuff. Like, this is a big thing. I follow this stuff.
Julie Smith:
What do you mean? Yeah, but you know, US immigration lawyers follow this
Tamina Watson:
stuff too, because it’s all— it’s been around in a lot of our
Tamina Watson:
forums. That’s how I got the breaking news that now he’s
Tamina Watson:
moving. And then they’re like, what’s his immigration status? What, you know, what
Tamina Watson:
happened here? So there’s, there’s many different angles
Tamina Watson:
to one particular family. And, you know, who knows?
Tamina Watson:
We’ll see. We’ll see. Well, so let’s go back a little because
Glenn Harper:
again, I’d like to get to know our guests a little bit. So your parents,
Glenn Harper:
did they immigrate to England at some point? Yes, my
Tamina Watson:
dad had immigrated in the ’60s. And
Tamina Watson:
when he got married to my mom, my mom moved to London in
Tamina Watson:
the ’70s. And then in the ’80s, the whole family
Tamina Watson:
moved to Bangladesh for a little while. And then in the ’90s, we came
Tamina Watson:
back. And then I continued my education and
Tamina Watson:
became a barrister, one of those trial lawyers who wear
Tamina Watson:
wigs and gowns. Good, good. And, you know, that was
Tamina Watson:
from a little girl. I mean, my first memory was I wanted to be a
Tamina Watson:
barrister. I didn’t, you know, that’s all I wanted to be, a trial lawyer with
Tamina Watson:
a wig and gown. My father was one too. So that’s
Tamina Watson:
where my inspiration came from. But then I moved to the United
Tamina Watson:
States and I had to restart my career and think
Tamina Watson:
about what I wanted to do. And immigration kept following
Tamina Watson:
me as a path, but immigration was the only thing I
Tamina Watson:
didn’t want to do. Wow. If there was one thing on my list that I
Tamina Watson:
didn’t want to do, it was immigration law. I grew up watching my father
Tamina Watson:
practice immigration law. And in the olden days,
Tamina Watson:
immigration law was very much a community thing to do. It wasn’t the sexy thing
Tamina Watson:
to do, you know? And— It was a lot of asylum as
Tamina Watson:
well, and in my mind, I thought immigration law was only
Tamina Watson:
asylum work. Mm-hmm. And I didn’t want to have my
Tamina Watson:
heartstrings just pulled on every day. Mm-hmm. It’s such a, you
Tamina Watson:
know, it can be tragic, it’s very heavy. And
Tamina Watson:
when I moved here, as I mentioned, I moved here 21 years ago, I was,
Tamina Watson:
I had to study for the bar again, and I had to think about what
Tamina Watson:
am I going to practice. And with a UK law degree,
Tamina Watson:
I could be practicing a federal
Tamina Watson:
area of law anywhere in the country, but I didn’t
Tamina Watson:
understand America had 50 states, 50 different, you know, legal
Tamina Watson:
systems. And immigration is a federal
Tamina Watson:
area of law, which means you can practice it anywhere. And as you mentioned at
Tamina Watson:
the top of the hour, I live in— on the West Coast in Seattle.
Tamina Watson:
And I could only take the New York Bar or the Californian
Tamina Watson:
Bar with my background. So I took the New York Bar,
Tamina Watson:
but that limited me in the areas of law I could
Tamina Watson:
practice. And immigration law kept following me. And the 5th
Tamina Watson:
time I surrendered. I said, okay, universe. I love it. I’ll
Tamina Watson:
just do this for, you know, a little while, and then I’ll do something
Tamina Watson:
else. And honest to God, the first day of immigration, I said,
Tamina Watson:
why am I fighting this? If you don’t want to practice asylum law,
Tamina Watson:
you don’t have to touch an asylum case. And I very quickly learned
Tamina Watson:
that, um, I jive with people who are
Tamina Watson:
brilliant entrepreneurs. And, you know, the savviness that
Tamina Watson:
comes with it, the drive that comes with it, the complexity of immigration law
Tamina Watson:
that is about entrepreneurship in many ways, you know, I
Tamina Watson:
had a natural knack for it. And here I am 21 years
Tamina Watson:
later. Was your— hold on. Was your dad, was he
Glenn Harper:
employed? Was he self-employed or did he work for a firm? Oh,
Tamina Watson:
good question. He was a barrister. And in the UK, barristers are
Tamina Watson:
self-employed. Self-employed. So did he give you a look that said, after
Glenn Harper:
you did this, I told you so? Did he say that or no? As a
Glenn Harper:
good dad would have said. No, actually my dad was
Tamina Watson:
actually a little upset that I was moving to another country because he wanted
Tamina Watson:
me to practice with him. And
Tamina Watson:
it took him a little while to get used to the fact that I wouldn’t
Tamina Watson:
be with him. But he was very proud. He’s very proud of my
Tamina Watson:
husband. My mother was definitely the woman behind the man
Tamina Watson:
and me. And, you know, it was interesting. But
Tamina Watson:
yeah, he was very proud that I followed his footsteps. He’s definitely not mad that
Glenn Harper:
you are in law in the US. He’s mad probably that
Glenn Harper:
his His daughter got swept up by some other man. And, and so that’s
Glenn Harper:
what he’s mad about. He’s, he’s not mad that you’re doing law in the US.
Glenn Harper:
Um, but that’s too funny. Go ahead, Jill. Do you have any brothers and sisters?
Tamina Watson:
I do. They’re— I have 2 siblings and they’re in the UK. And are they
Julie Smith:
following in your dad’s footsteps or did they do something completely different?
Tamina Watson:
Very different. You know, they didn’t wanna be like me for sure. Definitely
Tamina Watson:
didn’t wanna follow the, like, big sister’s doing this and let’s do
Tamina Watson:
something different. So you’re the oldest? I am, yeah. Okay, there you have it.
Glenn Harper:
Well, that explains everything. Okay. And the reason I do this, ’cause we can profile
Glenn Harper:
everybody and we can, there’s a certain fact pattern that always happens.
Glenn Harper:
And it’s just neat that this is going on. So, you know,
Glenn Harper:
there’s 2 things that happen when some, when people are, uh, that we kind of
Glenn Harper:
see when they become an entrepreneur. And one of those things is somebody was
Glenn Harper:
influential show them that, hey, it’s risky,
Glenn Harper:
but it’s exciting and fun. And there’s a lot of reward or
Glenn Harper:
that, that’s the one path. Or you go work in the steady job in the
Glenn Harper:
factory and do the thing, right? Or in the office and you do the thing.
Glenn Harper:
Nothing’s wrong with either one of them. So it sounds like the only thing you
Glenn Harper:
knew was being, watching your dad be self-employed, right? So you never knew really anything
Glenn Harper:
different. Is that a true statement? Well, actually, you know, I,
Tamina Watson:
I didn’t really know if I was going to be self-employed or not. You know,
Tamina Watson:
when you go to law school, you’re not necessarily learning about business. It’s a
Tamina Watson:
big problem. And I mean, these days you probably have seen there are coaches everywhere
Tamina Watson:
for lawyers, but 21 years ago, that was not the case.
Tamina Watson:
The influential person in my life to become an entrepreneur was actually my husband.
Tamina Watson:
My husband is an incredible human being,
Tamina Watson:
just loves me to bits. And when I was coming into a new country
Tamina Watson:
trying to find my feet again, I initially was
Tamina Watson:
working with somebody and it wasn’t going well. But my
Tamina Watson:
husband said to me, you know, why don’t you just try something on
Tamina Watson:
your own? And if you fail, I will still love you.
Tamina Watson:
And those were the words that got me into my own firm. And
Tamina Watson:
here I am. So I have to ask too, where did you meet your husband
Julie Smith:
on vacation? In Seattle. I had a sleepless in
Tamina Watson:
Seattle moment where— Oh, literally sleepless in Seattle. So I was just thinking that
Julie Smith:
was a, you know, Yeah. Okay. Legit. Yeah. Yeah. We
Tamina Watson:
had, we had some family friends who brought us together. How
Glenn Harper:
about that? And my fam, my, my, my, my mom’s sister and his
Tamina Watson:
colleagues brought us together. Okay. Well, that’s the best thing
Glenn Harper:
ever. So ultimately, you know, uh,
Glenn Harper:
some entrepreneurs, they look back and reflect and they say, you know,
Glenn Harper:
since I was 8 or 10, I was doing this or saw, a
Glenn Harper:
family member, a mentor doing this entrepreneurial thing. I was curious about it.
Glenn Harper:
And other times it just comes outta nowhere. So you weren’t basically
Glenn Harper:
coached per se, or led down the path where your dad’s like saying, hey, you
Glenn Harper:
really should become an entrepreneur like I am.
Glenn Harper:
Well, he was more like, hey, you figure life out, we’ll see how that goes.
Glenn Harper:
Or were you more, was he more like, hey, you really should go do this?
Tamina Watson:
It was more like, be a lawyer. Just be a lawyer on your own. Like,
Tamina Watson:
be a lawyer. Uh, but the legal system in the UK is actually pretty
Tamina Watson:
different from what it is here. The education system,
Tamina Watson:
how you practice law. And in the UK, there are 2 distinct
Tamina Watson:
pathways. One is being a trial lawyer or barrister, or a
Tamina Watson:
transactional lawyer, a solicitor. And a solicitor can
Tamina Watson:
be employed in a law firm, or they could have
Tamina Watson:
their own law firm and be an entrepreneur. But barristers typically
Tamina Watson:
will be under one umbrella called chambers,
Tamina Watson:
And they would all be self-employed. And so to me,
Tamina Watson:
I did not necessarily understand that as such. That was
Tamina Watson:
not necessarily the goal. The goal was to be a lawyer. My parents had a
Tamina Watson:
dream. I had a dream. How that was going to unfold, you know,
Tamina Watson:
obviously we’re seeing now. But the goal was to be a barrister, and
Tamina Watson:
the self-employment wasn’t necessarily the issue or the focus.
Julie Smith:
Right. It was more How to practice law. Got it. It’s sort of like when
Glenn Harper:
you’re an accountant. Exactly. She loves it. You can be governmental, private,
Glenn Harper:
corporate. The one thing I never wanted to do, numbers. I’m just kidding.
Glenn Harper:
I do that for her because she gets a kick out of it. Okay. So—
Julie Smith:
Wait, I have a question. I want to know. So you talked about how immigration
Julie Smith:
just kept hitting you in the face as you were going through, maybe I want
Julie Smith:
to do this, maybe I want to do this. You started out with the New
Julie Smith:
York bar. Walk me through some of the things that you did
Julie Smith:
that, and then, and then like highlight what was the immigration that was hitting you
Julie Smith:
in the face as you kind of walked these steps to get to where you
Julie Smith:
are. So first I moved to a new country, so
Tamina Watson:
I had to go through immigration myself. Um, and then I had to take the
Tamina Watson:
bar exams, but that also was a challenge because I had
Tamina Watson:
been studying forever and I had just started working in the UK
Tamina Watson:
as a, you know, very young barrister doing all the menial
Tamina Watson:
tasks that a newcomer does. But I had
Tamina Watson:
finished my studies, so I was not going to go to law school again.
Tamina Watson:
And when I kept calling, you know, advisors
Tamina Watson:
about how to become a lawyer in another country, I
Tamina Watson:
kept being guided to go to law school again. And I was like,
Tamina Watson:
no thank you, that’s not happening. And so when I learned
Tamina Watson:
that I could take the bar exams for New York, I
Tamina Watson:
obviously did that. And then it became a
Tamina Watson:
sort of a big aha moment that, my goodness, just because
Tamina Watson:
I’ve got the New York bar exam doesn’t mean I can work anywhere I want
Tamina Watson:
because the legal system is so different and I’ve never lived anywhere but Seattle.
Tamina Watson:
And so it took a little while, and I was doing a lot of, like,
Tamina Watson:
work experiences, internships, externships to
Tamina Watson:
sort of learn about the law
Tamina Watson:
and make connections and
Tamina Watson:
understand different issues.
Tamina Watson:
And it was at that time, you know, my law
Tamina Watson:
license and all of the things that needed to happen to work all came
Tamina Watson:
together at the same time. And when I started to look for a
Tamina Watson:
job, I realized, oh goodness, this is not going to be
Tamina Watson:
easy. I had essentially
Tamina Watson:
put myself out there a lot, you know, with a lot of volunteer work,
Tamina Watson:
and I was meeting people. And
Tamina Watson:
the first one came from a nonprofit saying, you know, we’ve got a
Tamina Watson:
position, you should apply. And I already knew I didn’t want to
Tamina Watson:
do immigration. In fact, the funny story is I knew I wasn’t going to do
Tamina Watson:
immigration work, so I had signed up with a temp agency, and
Tamina Watson:
I said, you know, They said, what do you want to do? I said, well,
Tamina Watson:
you know, I’m never going to do immigration. Put me in something immigration, you know,
Tamina Watson:
because I’m never going to meet these people again. Whoops.
Tamina Watson:
And the terminology in the law is different, too. So, in the
Tamina Watson:
UK, a legal assistant is generally a paralegal. A
Tamina Watson:
legal assistant in the US is essentially a secretary. And
Tamina Watson:
so, at this temp agency, they sent me to an
Tamina Watson:
immigration department at a law firm as a legal assistant. And I was just
Tamina Watson:
very happy to be out of the house. Right. My husband, who’s a lawyer as
Tamina Watson:
well, used to, you know, I just realized after, you know,
Tamina Watson:
dating and then getting married, realizing how many hours he works. He’s working
Tamina Watson:
all the hours. And I’m a newlywed. I’ve got, you know, he’s my only, he’s
Tamina Watson:
my only person. And so I was happy to get out of the
Tamina Watson:
house and get any job. And I said yes to being a
Tamina Watson:
legal assistant at the law firm. But it was one
Tamina Watson:
day there, and I realized I’m going to be photocopying all day. So I
Tamina Watson:
stomped my way home and I’m like, husband, I’m a
Tamina Watson:
secretary. How did this happen? And he’s like, it’s
Tamina Watson:
okay, I still love you.
Tamina Watson:
And the next day I got a job offer in
Tamina Watson:
immigration and I thought, you know, I’ll just do this. I’ll take this. That was
Tamina Watson:
my 5th immigration job offer. And I said, I’ll do it. And
Tamina Watson:
so I went and told this other secretary who was teaching me, to be a
Tamina Watson:
secretary, and I said, you know, I’m going to be an immigration lawyer tomorrow or
Tamina Watson:
next week. And she went and told on me, and then the, the
Tamina Watson:
managing partner of that department summoned me in and said, I’m so sorry, you know,
Tamina Watson:
you can’t be here anymore. You’re going to be an immigration lawyer next week. So
Tamina Watson:
I was sort of escorted out of the, of the, of the department. And
Tamina Watson:
what’s funny is I would, you know, I— nobody knew me. I was so
Tamina Watson:
happy that I was a secretary. Nobody knew me because these people became my colleagues.
Tamina Watson:
And it’s, it’s, there was one person who was
Tamina Watson:
so kind. You know those people that are so nice to the
Tamina Watson:
waitresses at restaurants and they pay attention? This was that kind of
Tamina Watson:
guy. And he was so kind. And, but he’s
Tamina Watson:
the only person who really remembered me from those secretarial days. So I had
Tamina Watson:
lunch with him not so long ago and we just had a big laugh. He’s
Tamina Watson:
like, you know, you were with us for a hot minute and then you’ve done
Tamina Watson:
all of this. It’s, um, That was essentially the
Tamina Watson:
journey of, I didn’t want to be an immigration lawyer, but the
Tamina Watson:
universe of immigration kept pulling me in until I said, okay, I
Tamina Watson:
succumb. And I have to assume your husband is not an
Julie Smith:
immigration lawyer. That’s correct. Yes. He’s not an immigration
Tamina Watson:
lawyer. How about that? So, you know, one of
Glenn Harper:
the cool things is when you became an immigration lawyer, you
Glenn Harper:
worked at a firm then, right? And you got hired for them. At some point
Glenn Harper:
you worked there for X amount of time and you’re like, you know what? Why
Glenn Harper:
am I giving them 70% of this? I should do this on my own. So
Glenn Harper:
you went there for a certain amount of time. Did you go in there thinking
Glenn Harper:
you’d go on your own or you went there thinking you’d climb that corporate ladder
Glenn Harper:
in that firm? Do you recall? Yes. It’s an
Tamina Watson:
interesting story, actually. It’s slightly different. Love a good story. Uh,
Tamina Watson:
yeah. My own immigration lawyer, uh, was
Tamina Watson:
going through some life changes. And when all of my,
Tamina Watson:
um, issues came together and I, I could work,
Tamina Watson:
she was like, well, why don’t you work with me? Why don’t you become a
Tamina Watson:
partner? And to me, partnership sounds amazing.
Tamina Watson:
And, you know, again, I don’t know any different, and this is a job,
Tamina Watson:
and so be it, it’s immigration, but it’s a job. And I said yes.
Tamina Watson:
And, uh, I very quickly learned
Tamina Watson:
that a law firm is a business and somebody has to run the
Tamina Watson:
business. And this person was not the right person who knew how to run a
Tamina Watson:
business because she was going through life changes that
Tamina Watson:
propelled her to run a business that she didn’t know how to run. She was
Tamina Watson:
a very good lawyer. And so,
Tamina Watson:
interestingly enough, our bookkeeper one day summoned us.
Tamina Watson:
And I, you know, I’m very new. I have no idea about any of these
Tamina Watson:
things. No. They’ve summoned us and the bookkeeper’s like, well, you
Tamina Watson:
guys are not sending invoices out and you’re not doing any of this right and
Tamina Watson:
you owe us more money. And the more you do
Tamina Watson:
wrong and incorrectly, the more work it is for us to
Tamina Watson:
fix it. So we need to teach you how to do this. So I
Tamina Watson:
learned how to do bookkeeping from our bookkeeper because
Tamina Watson:
my partner wasn’t doing it right.
Tamina Watson:
And I very quickly learned that to pay
Tamina Watson:
bills, whether it’s the electricity or the rent for
Tamina Watson:
the office, somebody needs to do the work and invoice and
Tamina Watson:
all the things that you’re supposed to do. I thought I was going to be
Tamina Watson:
learning from this person. I didn’t. And it was
Tamina Watson:
really a year and a half later when I
Tamina Watson:
realized this couldn’t work, but I was too scared to do anything else.
Tamina Watson:
When my husband said, just go and try this on your own. And if you
Tamina Watson:
fail, I’ll still love you. And that was the beginning of the rest of my
Tamina Watson:
life. Isn’t it funny in school,
Glenn Harper:
like even if you weren’t just immigrated here,
Glenn Harper:
the same challenges face anybody who wants to be an entrepreneur. We, we don’t know.
Glenn Harper:
There’s nobody teaching anybody how to do it. It’s like this secret that is
Glenn Harper:
not out there. I mean, there’s a lot of things today. You can find a
Glenn Harper:
lot of things. But back in the day, you’re on an island by yourself
Glenn Harper:
and your experience of like, I don’t even know how to do this, is the
Glenn Harper:
same as somebody else that goes on their own. They don’t know what to do.
Glenn Harper:
It’s the hardest thing ever. And thank God we have more tools today to do
Glenn Harper:
that. But is that what got you saying, hey,
Glenn Harper:
gonna go on my own, and ’cause if I’m gonna do it, I might as
Glenn Harper:
well do it for myself? I assume that’s what happened. And then I
Glenn Harper:
suspect at that point you’re like, Here’s a nice niche I could be in, cuz
Glenn Harper:
now I’ve been through the whole process. I’ve navigated the whole thing. I
Glenn Harper:
could do a, a lot of good for a few people
Glenn Harper:
instead of a little good for a lot of people.
Tamina Watson:
You’ve touched on something very interesting because I think a
Tamina Watson:
lot of lawyers probably feel the same in that you’ve
Tamina Watson:
learned the academia and academic
Tamina Watson:
part of it, but nobody, or like an accountant, nobody’s really told you how to
Tamina Watson:
run a business. And in the UK, as I
Tamina Watson:
mentioned earlier, there are the 2 tracks. There’s the transactional
Tamina Watson:
lawyer and the trial lawyer. The transactional lawyers are actually taught some
Tamina Watson:
of these things at school, but not the trial
Tamina Watson:
lawyer. They’re not taught that. So all of what we had
Tamina Watson:
to learn was how to stand on your feet and, you know,
Tamina Watson:
argue and negotiate and all of, you know, be in court. But when I
Tamina Watson:
moved here, I had to learn trial by fire, so to speak, as
Tamina Watson:
I just mentioned. But what was interesting is I still
Tamina Watson:
wanted to practice immigration law. And the first, as I mentioned
Tamina Watson:
earlier, that I was like, why was I fighting this? This immigration is a
Tamina Watson:
fast-moving area, not as fast— it wasn’t as fast
Tamina Watson:
then as it is now, of course. Yeah. But it was— I could
Tamina Watson:
see the impact on somebody’s life, you know, within a
Tamina Watson:
reasonable amount of time. And all of it’s complicated. Where do you
Tamina Watson:
file? And what is the legality of this and eligibility of it?
Tamina Watson:
And then how to bill for that. And as I’m learning all of these things,
Tamina Watson:
I opened my own doors to Watson Immigration Law January
Tamina Watson:
1st, 2009. But if you can cast your memory
Tamina Watson:
back to 2008 and ’09, it really was
Tamina Watson:
the beginning of a similar scenarios to what we saw in
Tamina Watson:
2021 and 2022. The recession, people being laid off.
Tamina Watson:
And I had just opened my doors and living in Seattle
Tamina Watson:
where the headquarters of Microsoft and big companies are here, people were being laid off.
Tamina Watson:
Immigrants, high-skilled immigrants were being laid off. So
Tamina Watson:
number one, I was a little scared to open my own doors because I didn’t
Tamina Watson:
know what to expect, but I was going with the flow. And
Tamina Watson:
we had this economic situation happening that was
Tamina Watson:
propelling people to call my phone. And
Tamina Watson:
what transpired over and over again was these
Tamina Watson:
high-skilled immigrants who had a desire to be entrepreneurs
Tamina Watson:
but were not necessarily ready to be entrepreneurs because they had a
Tamina Watson:
steady paycheck with families and mortgages to pay.
Tamina Watson:
But if you are a high-skilled immigrant and you don’t
Tamina Watson:
have valid employment, you are now
Tamina Watson:
unlawfully in the United States. And so the calls
Tamina Watson:
that I got were basically saying, I want my own
Tamina Watson:
startup, help me get a visa for my startup. So
Tamina Watson:
as I was learning how to run my own business, you know, it’s almost like,
Tamina Watson:
I don’t know if you’ve heard this sort of saying that if you want to
Tamina Watson:
learn about how to nurture a newborn baby, go to a mother of a newborn
Tamina Watson:
baby because a teenager mom has forgotten all of those things. I had
Tamina Watson:
just started my business, and I’m still learning that there are quarterly
Tamina Watson:
taxes to pay and invoices. And, you know, that learning doesn’t go
Tamina Watson:
away even after 21 years. But those people who are just
Tamina Watson:
trying to get on the ladder while immigrate— you know,
Tamina Watson:
navigating the immigration minefield became
Tamina Watson:
a natural sort of connection for me. I could understand
Tamina Watson:
them. They could sort of relate to me. And I think that connection
Tamina Watson:
help me sort of get— one of the
Tamina Watson:
things I said to a client once is they came to me and said, well,
Tamina Watson:
that’s my dream. And I realized in that moment,
Tamina Watson:
gosh, all these dreams that I had— Mm-hmm. Were
Tamina Watson:
coming together in America. That’s the American dream. Oh my
Tamina Watson:
gosh, I’m living the American dream. Oh my gosh, each of these people who have
Tamina Watson:
ever uttered the word dream, I’ve got to even push myself
Tamina Watson:
harder to make their dreams come true. And so that
Tamina Watson:
entrepreneurship angle, from my own
Tamina Watson:
perspective, but also the client’s perspective,
Tamina Watson:
really propelled my own career. It
Tamina Watson:
started this trajectory that I didn’t know I
Tamina Watson:
would be following. So
Glenn Harper:
the immigration law for entrepreneurs is the—
Glenn Harper:
are these Folks that are coming here on a temporary work
Glenn Harper:
basis, or are these becoming— going to become citizens and become
Glenn Harper:
entrepreneurs, or is it both that you work with? It can be both.
Glenn Harper:
Okay. But the trajectory, if you like, could be
Tamina Watson:
threefold. Number one, international students come
Tamina Watson:
here. They often do these entrepreneurship classes and
Tamina Watson:
then go into cohorts, and then they have these ideas. they need a
Tamina Watson:
visa for, you know, running their startup. That’s one category.
Tamina Watson:
The other category is you’ve been at Microsoft for 10 years, but you have this
Tamina Watson:
burning desire to be an entrepreneur. You
Tamina Watson:
wait for your green card and then you become an entrepreneur. You don’t necessarily need
Tamina Watson:
me at that point. You’re— you’ve got a green card and you’re all set. But
Tamina Watson:
what if you’re that Microsoft person waiting for that green card? You’re in a line
Tamina Watson:
to get a green card. There’s no real line. It’s sort of invisible. Mm-hmm. But
Tamina Watson:
now you’ve been laid off and you’re sort of
Tamina Watson:
compelled to take that step. And a lot of
Tamina Watson:
my clients are like that. And the third prong is
Tamina Watson:
that people who are very successful outside the United States
Tamina Watson:
see the opportunity that America can bring their businesses to
Tamina Watson:
themselves and they expand into the US. So I do a lot of US
Tamina Watson:
expansion work as well. Well, who knew there
Glenn Harper:
was all those different kinds of ways you can do that? And, but, and you
Glenn Harper:
know, it’s funny, the, the one that, um, probably
Glenn Harper:
sticks, that’s probably the most urgent is probably somebody
Glenn Harper:
who has been here fully assimilated, doing their thing,
Glenn Harper:
living the dream, and then they lose their job and they have the— they’re going
Glenn Harper:
to be gone if they’re not gainfully employed. That’s probably the most urgent,
Glenn Harper:
I’m guessing. that needs the help the most, right? Absolutely.
Tamina Watson:
And this is what really put me on the map because in
Tamina Watson:
2008 and ’09, when I saw the gap in the
Tamina Watson:
immigration system. So our immigration system is from the
Tamina Watson:
1950s and ’60s. And the most recent update was in
Tamina Watson:
1990, which established all the visa categories that we
Tamina Watson:
have. So you’ve probably heard about O visa, H-1B visa,
Tamina Watson:
et cetera. But there was never a startup visa.
Tamina Watson:
So in 2009, when I started to work with these entrepreneurs,
Tamina Watson:
they were aspiring entrepreneurs, and then I helped them get there.
Tamina Watson:
I started to write about it. Why don’t we have a visa for startups?
Tamina Watson:
And what was very interesting is a lot of VCs and angel
Tamina Watson:
investors, people who are investing in high-skilled immigrants, could also see the
Tamina Watson:
problem. And so they were advocating in their own silo
Tamina Watson:
And in— and I was doing what I was doing. And around
Tamina Watson:
2010 was the first time Congress has had a bill
Tamina Watson:
called the Startup Visa Bill. And it was a result
Tamina Watson:
of a lot of these advocacy groups that had
Tamina Watson:
come up from the VC world and the tech
Tamina Watson:
world accelerators. And when I saw that bill, I was like,
Tamina Watson:
that’s the answer. And so there was a merging
Tamina Watson:
of some of these people that came together. And I
Tamina Watson:
have been working with them since. Now a lot of people know about it. But
Tamina Watson:
as you might know, lawyers are often about billable time,
Tamina Watson:
you know. But as an entrepreneur, I
Tamina Watson:
recognized, I had an aha moment one day, oh,
Tamina Watson:
I could actually help make law. Mm-hmm. It’s not
Tamina Watson:
just about lawyering. It’s about the impact I can have
Tamina Watson:
and be, be the voice for the people who, who need
Tamina Watson:
a pathway and don’t have it. So that became honestly
Tamina Watson:
one of the propellers of my career to this day.
Tamina Watson:
And I’ve written so much now. I have books. I have— my first
Tamina Watson:
book was called The Startup Visa. It’s the series, it’s called The
Tamina Watson:
Startup Visa. And it was really inspired by a
Tamina Watson:
client of mine who is a VC who became a
Tamina Watson:
VC and is one of the earliest VCs in Africa.
Tamina Watson:
And he said, Tamina, you have so much content. You know, you should
Tamina Watson:
just write a book. I’m like, oh, yes, I should write a book. And,
Tamina Watson:
you know, I’ve never written a book before. I just had this false
Tamina Watson:
notion that I have so much content, it’s a book already. It’s
Tamina Watson:
only when I started writing it that I realized, ah,
Tamina Watson:
content on a blog or articles written at different times for different
Tamina Watson:
audience— Different. Doesn’t gel and become a book
Tamina Watson:
together. But it really did start the book
Tamina Watson:
authorship journey for me. And eventually, I did have a
Tamina Watson:
publisher initially. It was a well-known VC who had a publishing
Tamina Watson:
company. But they said to me, we’ll write this book. Of course, we’ll publish this
Tamina Watson:
book. Of course, this is right up our alley. But it will be an ebook
Tamina Watson:
only. And I realized, if I’m going to speak to a
Tamina Watson:
senator or a congressperson, I’m going to walk away with the book
Tamina Watson:
in their hands and an ebook is not gonna do it. Nope.
Tamina Watson:
That’s how I became a self-published author. Um, and it really
Tamina Watson:
started my authorship journey. It’s so funny,
Glenn Harper:
entrepreneurs, they’re just like, they, they see opportunity and
Glenn Harper:
instead of going, oh, that looks hard, they’re like, I can do that. I can
Glenn Harper:
do that. Let’s fix that. Let’s do it. Really? I was like, well, how much
Julie Smith:
free time did she really have? She had no free time. Zero. Zero. Zero. And
Glenn Harper:
that’s the cool part about it. And again, it seems
Glenn Harper:
like you get to pick and choose
Glenn Harper:
probably now more than you did before. Not that it would matter, but you get
Glenn Harper:
to pick and choose your clientele to say, man,
Glenn Harper:
this person, man, they got it. I’m going to help them. They are going to
Glenn Harper:
make a difference. They’re here to be the best version of
Glenn Harper:
themselves, to help the country do the things wherever that immigration would be at,
Glenn Harper:
and versus somebody who’s like, hey, I just need to get in and I’m going
Glenn Harper:
to say I’m doing this, but I’m really not. You probably can disintegrate that pretty
Glenn Harper:
quickly when you look at a client, probably, because it’s got to be
Glenn Harper:
rewarding. I’m very lucky at this stage.
Tamina Watson:
People that I want to work with find me, and it’s mutually,
Tamina Watson:
you know, a mutual loving relationship.
Tamina Watson:
Because I say to my clients that we’re a team, you know, your
Tamina Watson:
business, you know your thing, I know the law. And
Tamina Watson:
when that meeting of the mind happens, it
Tamina Watson:
becomes electric in the work that you can do. And
Tamina Watson:
so I, yes, I’m privileged enough to be able to
Tamina Watson:
do that, but I’m also very grateful and lucky that the right people
Tamina Watson:
find me. So did you build a team? Or
Julie Smith:
2008, 2009, at what point do you build a team? Have you built a team?
Julie Smith:
How’d you go about building your team? Well, yeah, I love all the
Tamina Watson:
questions you’re asking because, you know, this is the stuff that people don’t
Tamina Watson:
necessarily know. It’s sort of under the hood. It takes a long
Tamina Watson:
time. Again, nobody teaches you how to be an entrepreneur. And suddenly
Tamina Watson:
you’re like, I’ve got to do payroll. Where is the money coming from? You know,
Tamina Watson:
and whether you pay yourself or not, just like the captain of the ship, you
Tamina Watson:
sink last, you know. And so I initially
Tamina Watson:
had a paralegal with my previous partner, and
Tamina Watson:
that paralegal was full-time. And when I was— when we
Tamina Watson:
became 2 firms, I had that paralegal
Tamina Watson:
for 2 days a week. And one of the things that my ex-partner said to
Tamina Watson:
me was, you eat what you kill. Mm-hmm.
Tamina Watson:
And what was so interesting about that, not that I really understood it, but I
Tamina Watson:
took it to heart, that I’ve got to be out there. I’ve got to be
Tamina Watson:
out there, you know, making sure that people know that I can help them. But
Tamina Watson:
she had 13 years of experience and I had zero. And so
Tamina Watson:
when calls would come in, people would naturally be calling,
Tamina Watson:
wanting to speak with her, but the work didn’t necessarily
Tamina Watson:
trickle down to me. They would— I was bringing the work in, but she was
Tamina Watson:
taking the work. So when I started my own firm, I didn’t
Tamina Watson:
realize how much work was coming in under my name. And
Tamina Watson:
so I had this person for 2 days a week, and I very quickly realized
Tamina Watson:
gosh, I need another day. But I did it very
Tamina Watson:
cautiously. And the ex-partner said, okay, you can have her for 3
Tamina Watson:
days a week, because she obviously realized that the work was not
Tamina Watson:
coming in for her. And when I said, okay, I think I
Tamina Watson:
need her for 4 days a week, and then she put her foot down saying,
Tamina Watson:
no, you can’t. Hmm. So then I was like, what do I do? But I’m
Tamina Watson:
too scared to have somebody else. I’ve got 2 payrolls to do.
Tamina Watson:
And, you know, eventually break through that. And, um, I’m very, very,
Tamina Watson:
very lucky to have some incredible people on my team. We’re
Tamina Watson:
not very big, we’re about 8 or 9, and, um,
Tamina Watson:
I now am using some remote, uh, team members as well.
Tamina Watson:
And so we’re a small but mighty team. And
Tamina Watson:
what’s really important to know is that each of these people are loving
Tamina Watson:
human beings. They love the work that they’re doing.
Tamina Watson:
They really see the impact that the
Tamina Watson:
client is making in the universe. And we
Tamina Watson:
together, we’re dynamite. So I have to know, did you get
Julie Smith:
the paralegal for 4 days a week? Eventually,
Tamina Watson:
she became full-time with me. She’s no, she’s no longer with me
Tamina Watson:
anymore. Life evolves. But yes,
Tamina Watson:
And the entrepreneurship fears don’t ever go away. You know, it’s
Tamina Watson:
just, it’s a different level of fear and a different level of, you know,
Tamina Watson:
insecurities. And, but you push through each time and you do it
Tamina Watson:
anyway and you get to the next level. I think one of the
Tamina Watson:
interesting parts was I had an opportunity to do a radio show.
Tamina Watson:
Everything that I’ve done is I’ve said yes to something scary. Oh, I see. And
Tamina Watson:
one of them was doing a radio show. And it was a
Tamina Watson:
live radio show. And I said to the person, gosh, you know,
Tamina Watson:
I’m just a lawyer. You know, what am I going to do? Mm-hmm.
Tamina Watson:
And he said, no, Tamina, you just tell people what they need to know.
Tamina Watson:
You know, each editor, each person that’s come into my life has sort of shown
Tamina Watson:
me why I’m in— why my voice is important.
Tamina Watson:
But when I was doing the live radio show, I was
Tamina Watson:
petrified. It was so— I was just learning about— I forget what those circles are
Tamina Watson:
called, you know. You know, I was sort of really, really outside of that
Tamina Watson:
zone. And, um, when I
Tamina Watson:
did my first radio show, or the second one, I thought, no, like, I can
Tamina Watson:
do this. I can do this. And I realized I had conquered a huge
Tamina Watson:
fear. Mm-hmm. And that radio show was live for 2 years, which
Tamina Watson:
became my podcast. And then I had a second podcast. And
Tamina Watson:
believe it or not, as life would have it, I’m doing that same live
Tamina Watson:
radio show. It’s a different station that just kicked off last week.
Glenn Harper:
Always say yes, because it’s, it’s never as hard as we think it’s gonna be.
Glenn Harper:
But to your one point about when you’re an entrepreneur, there’s really those
Glenn Harper:
3 core buckets. We, we are like, you’re going to do the
Glenn Harper:
business of being an attorney, but you have to run a business.
Glenn Harper:
That can support being an attorney. And then you have to go grow the
Glenn Harper:
business and be the marketing person to go bring in business. So you have to
Glenn Harper:
do— somebody has to do all 3. And when you first start out, you don’t
Glenn Harper:
know which one. You don’t even know. You think you’re going to just be an
Glenn Harper:
attorney, but it’s like, no, that’s— you end up doing less
Glenn Harper:
attorney work and more running the business and,
Glenn Harper:
you know, making rain than you are doing legal work. probably at some point you
Glenn Harper:
have your team doing all these things. Well, I have to say, the
Tamina Watson:
legal work doesn’t stop. No, it’s there. I mean, at the moment, I’m still
Tamina Watson:
the only lawyer. I’ve had— Oh, geez. Throughout the times,
Tamina Watson:
throughout these years, I’ve had lawyers off and on, and it’s like any
Tamina Watson:
business. So at the moment, I’m the only lawyer, but I do have an
Tamina Watson:
amazing legal team. But what I was going to say
Tamina Watson:
is, Nowadays,
Tamina Watson:
I get bombarded with coaches, like law firm
Tamina Watson:
coaching. And, you know, immigration law is
Tamina Watson:
volatile and controversial. And with any business,
Tamina Watson:
there’s ups and downs. And do you do this or do you
Tamina Watson:
not do this? And I want to say a few years
Tamina Watson:
ago, when I was thinking,
Tamina Watson:
well, how long am I going to do this? Can I do it this way?
Tamina Watson:
I suddenly had to talk to myself and be my own coach
Tamina Watson:
and say, well, I’ve kept a business alive for
Tamina Watson:
18, 19 years. There’s something to be said about that.
Julie Smith:
You can do this. Yeah. Um, and so
Tamina Watson:
am I happy? Success can be defined in so many different ways. It’s what’s your
Tamina Watson:
definition of success? So what is your definition?
Glenn Harper:
I bet I know it, but I don’t know. I’m still figuring it out. You
Tamina Watson:
tell me what you think it is. I know exactly what it is. Your definition
Glenn Harper:
of success, it’s, this is bigger than you. You’re helping other people
Glenn Harper:
achieve people’s— what kind of word is that? You’re helping other people
Glenn Harper:
achieve their dreams. And that’s way more satisfying. Your
Glenn Harper:
dream’s doing just fine, but you’re helping others. And that
Glenn Harper:
is why you do what you do. And that’s the success that you’re having.
Tamina Watson:
You’ve hit it on the nail. And immigration lawyers in this moment are actually
Tamina Watson:
asking the same question of themselves over and over again.
Tamina Watson:
While there are big immigration law firms, a lot of people who do
Tamina Watson:
humanitarian immigration work are often entrepreneurs too.
Tamina Watson:
But the work of immigration law has
Tamina Watson:
never been more stressful. And how do you
Tamina Watson:
sustain yourself in work like this? So I
Tamina Watson:
think in this era of my practice, this era of
Tamina Watson:
my business, it’s become very important to me
Tamina Watson:
to make sure that I am happy in my heart and my
Tamina Watson:
soul. And I can do this, as
Tamina Watson:
stressful as it is, I can continue to do this with love. But you’ve
Tamina Watson:
got to inject love in yourself, otherwise you can’t do that. And how
Tamina Watson:
do you do that? You’ve got to find it. It’s not just by picking an
Tamina Watson:
apple from a tree. That’s not how it happens. It’s a journey. And
Tamina Watson:
I’ve been on that journey, and my journey has led me to birding, bird
Tamina Watson:
photography. And it’s the thing that keeps me
Tamina Watson:
sane and keeps me alive
Tamina Watson:
and excited and curious. And because I have
Tamina Watson:
something that’s not purely work anymore, I
Tamina Watson:
mean, again, I don’t have a lot of spare time, but I, I can
Tamina Watson:
inject those moments in it that allows me to do this stressful
Tamina Watson:
work and sort of figure out how to keep doing it.
Glenn Harper:
Can I ask you a question? So if in everybody’s
Glenn Harper:
career, whatever that is and whatever their business is, the, the stress,
Glenn Harper:
Like, would you mind sharing with me
Glenn Harper:
what is the stress that you’re under? What is
Glenn Harper:
causing you the stress? Is it because you want to do very well
Glenn Harper:
for your client because you inherit their burden and you’re trying to solve for
Glenn Harper:
that? Is it because the rules are changing? You don’t want to lose your
Glenn Harper:
business. What is the stress that’s causing you the most stress? What is that
Glenn Harper:
thing? Have you defined it? Identify the issue. Yeah. All of those
Tamina Watson:
things. And what I will say is, no matter what kind of business you
Tamina Watson:
run, you have that, Justice Ibrahim. 100%. And, but in
Tamina Watson:
the immigration lawyering field,
Tamina Watson:
it is the burden of, it’s somebody’s livelihood or their loved ones. So
Tamina Watson:
the pressure is beyond high.
Tamina Watson:
And the, the expectation and the
Tamina Watson:
responsibility is very heavy.
Julie Smith:
If you— that’s on a good day. Mm-hmm. And when the rules are
Tamina Watson:
changing on you overnight, and you don’t know what to expect tomorrow, and how
Tamina Watson:
you’re going to be navigating that, and how that’s impacting your clients,
Tamina Watson:
it brings another element of stress. And
Tamina Watson:
just an example, these are people who are running businesses. So, just an
Tamina Watson:
example of, you know, there’s a— there was a
Tamina Watson:
new fee of $100,000 on H-1Bs. I don’t know if you are aware
Tamina Watson:
of it earlier this year. I don’t know. And suddenly, whether
Tamina Watson:
you’re the owner of the business who needs the H-1B or you’re
Tamina Watson:
hiring people, you now have limitations. And that is
Tamina Watson:
impacting the bottom line of your business because you can’t serve your customers.
Tamina Watson:
But just a story of a, you know, just ongoing,
Tamina Watson:
this $100,000 on again, off again
Tamina Watson:
is making the CEO think
Tamina Watson:
about decisions of, am I filing? Am I not filing? Can I file
Tamina Watson:
this this way? Can I not file it this way? 2 weeks ago, we made
Tamina Watson:
a decision based on the $100,000 being on again, and now we
Tamina Watson:
have to pivot because it’s off again. And this is
Tamina Watson:
somebody else’s business where they have employees who also need payroll. You know,
Tamina Watson:
so the pressure is, is pretty high.
Tamina Watson:
And up until I found bird photography, um, I,
Tamina Watson:
I didn’t have a way to relieve the stress. And the—
Tamina Watson:
especially during the COVID years when immigration was pretty
Tamina Watson:
evolving with, with the, with the times, but also now
Tamina Watson:
you’ve got COVID. Oh yeah. So there were procedural lockdowns.
Tamina Watson:
It was probably the height of the stress. And you have to think
Tamina Watson:
about, you know, obviously I’ve thought about closing my
Tamina Watson:
law firm down too. You know, it’s like you’re very much at that peak
Tamina Watson:
of like, what am I going to do? And
Tamina Watson:
all of those are stressful. I think though, like from my standpoint, and
Julie Smith:
again, this is the woman’s viewpoint over here, You’re a feeler.
Julie Smith:
And I think you feel every single person’s burden,
Julie Smith:
love, complication, whatever it is that walks through the door,
Julie Smith:
you feel it and you own it. And I think if I could tie
Julie Smith:
a ribbon on it, that’s your stress. Yeah. And
Julie Smith:
the stress is you feel when it change— the law changes because
Julie Smith:
they feel that. And I think the birds bring you peace because they’re
Julie Smith:
just out there flying and being peaceful. And they’re not feeling the stress that you’re
Julie Smith:
feeling, right? If I could like connect the dots, tie the bow, whatever that is,
Julie Smith:
I just think you, you’re a feeler and, and that’s
Julie Smith:
what it comes down to. You’re not a transactional. At the big firms, everybody’s just
Glenn Harper:
a number. They don’t care, but you care. That’s the bird you’re carrying. And we
Glenn Harper:
know this because when we deal with our clientele, it’s a very personal level
Glenn Harper:
that you want to do well for them and you inherit all their problems and
Glenn Harper:
all their opportunities and you feel responsible. You’re not, but you feel that way
Glenn Harper:
for it. But it— you’re just not a transactional person. You, you
Glenn Harper:
deeply want to help them, and that is a hell of a burden to carry.
Glenn Harper:
So who knew birds could be the thing? Thank God you found a thing. Um,
Glenn Harper:
but if you stop caring, you won’t be an effective attorney as you are,
Glenn Harper:
because then you’re just going to— why would you even do it then? Because you
Glenn Harper:
don’t have a passion for it. So true. There have
Tamina Watson:
been times where I said I wish I could care less, but I simply
Tamina Watson:
cannot. I simply cannot. That’s not the way it’s going to be. Welcome to being
Glenn Harper:
an entrepreneur that you care about your clients. Good luck with that. We tell everybody.
Glenn Harper:
Um, well, you know, it’s, it’s funny too. Um, you know, I
Glenn Harper:
just, I wanted to go on a side note because immigration worldwide
Glenn Harper:
is such a whatever it is these days. And it
Glenn Harper:
seems like it’s really, There’s,
Glenn Harper:
it’s either nationalism or the globalism,
Glenn Harper:
like either it’s opportunity or culture. And we’re fighting this
Glenn Harper:
war between the different countries, different cultures of who should do
Glenn Harper:
what, where, and how. And it doesn’t matter what side you’re on.
Glenn Harper:
There’s just this massive war with these 2
Glenn Harper:
things. I don’t know the right answer. It’s way beyond my
Glenn Harper:
skillset. But you’re kind of stuck in the middle of that where
Glenn Harper:
it doesn’t matter. You’re just trying to do this task and help this person in
Glenn Harper:
the current law to do this thing. You believe it to be true and you’re
Glenn Harper:
doing it, but you’re probably catching heat from all over because
Glenn Harper:
they don’t even— I mean, it’s not even fair that they’re getting heat for that
Glenn Harper:
because you’re just trying to do this thing that’s in the law that you’re trying
Glenn Harper:
to not exploit, but you’re trying to help somebody out. But that would be, I
Glenn Harper:
think, a very hard thing to do. Again, for me, people hate the
Glenn Harper:
IRS, so they blame me. Well, I’m not the person making the tax law. I’m
Glenn Harper:
just helping you trying to figure it out. Right. Um, but you probably feel a
Glenn Harper:
little bit of that, correct? That it’s not just the pressure of the person, it’s
Glenn Harper:
everything. For sure. And I, I,
Tamina Watson:
this, this, um, year or 2025, the
Tamina Watson:
legal profession in general has felt a lot of pressure,
Tamina Watson:
um, in just in, in, the rule of law, you know, being
Tamina Watson:
attacked. And so the legal system and the
Tamina Watson:
legal profession itself has felt it. So
Tamina Watson:
I feel it from that perspective, um, when the rules are
Tamina Watson:
changing and I’m trying to figure out what to do
Tamina Watson:
for clients and all of those things, that, that’s it. But
Tamina Watson:
you can’t help but also think about the bigger picture of the world.
Tamina Watson:
And exactly what you just said, and add to that the wildfires
Tamina Watson:
that are around the world happening in Europe, not just the US.
Tamina Watson:
There is a huge displacement of human beings. What
Tamina Watson:
we really need is a world solution to immigration.
Tamina Watson:
And, you know, it’s, it’s beyond me at this point.
Julie Smith:
Mm-hmm. I hope people who are going to the World Economic
Tamina Watson:
Forum are thinking about it and coming to conclusions and ideas
Tamina Watson:
that they can put out there, but we’re all human beings, we’re all
Tamina Watson:
connected. How do we, how do we find ways that
Tamina Watson:
everybody can be served? And, you
Tamina Watson:
know, there are ideas about, well, if you’re displaced from this country but this country
Tamina Watson:
needs this type of workers, why don’t we find a way to solve that? I
Tamina Watson:
mean, you know, the age-old
Tamina Watson:
discussion that’s happened in the United States about immigration reform is Who’s
Tamina Watson:
picking our apples? Who’s, who’s doing all the agriculture work?
Tamina Watson:
Who’s, who’s actually serving the people who
Tamina Watson:
need home care, healthcare, you know, nurses?
Tamina Watson:
There’s a, it’s much bigger than
Tamina Watson:
just running a law firm. And ultimately,
Glenn Harper:
you know, the only way we can navigate this as entrepreneurs and just
Glenn Harper:
humans is we can only control what we can control. And all those
Glenn Harper:
things, as stressful as they are, that’s beyond my
Glenn Harper:
skillset. I’ve got to focus on this task at hand. Going to be a good
Glenn Harper:
spouse, be a good parent, could be a good employer,
Glenn Harper:
take care of your clients and take awesome pictures of birds.
Glenn Harper:
That’s all you can control. Everything else, you can’t do anything with that.
Tamina Watson:
And it takes a long time to learn that though. To take in the pictures
Glenn Harper:
of birds? Yeah, I know. That’s hard. Well, no, I think the
Tamina Watson:
nothing is in your control realization
Tamina Watson:
takes a long time to really sort of land.
Tamina Watson:
Because when you’re an entrepreneur, you feel like you can fix
Tamina Watson:
things. You can go out there and talk about it. You can go and convince
Tamina Watson:
somebody else. But you realize
Tamina Watson:
nothing is in your control. Be happy with the little bit that you
Tamina Watson:
could do. And just live your life in the way that, you know, is
Tamina Watson:
in the highest good of the people around you. But it takes a long time
Tamina Watson:
to come to that realization. Well, you’ve learned, you said one thing earlier, and again,
Glenn Harper:
I was making fun of this bird because it’s such a true thing. It is
Glenn Harper:
so relaxing because as an entrepreneur, you’re just full throttle,
Glenn Harper:
go, go, go 24/7. Your body, our body’s not made
Glenn Harper:
to that. We’re made to peak and relax, peak and relax. We’re not
Glenn Harper:
made to go steady, right? We like to peak and going down. And
Glenn Harper:
you can’t go full tilt all the time. It just doesn’t work. And so having
Glenn Harper:
that outlet where you can now realize this and maybe step back and maybe you
Glenn Harper:
can make that peak not so high and not so long, that would be ideal.
Glenn Harper:
But, uh, you can’t— you’re so good at what you do. I can’t imagine stopping
Glenn Harper:
it. Wait, don’t take away from my question. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Go
Glenn Harper:
ahead. Oh yeah, you’re up. You’re up. This is your part now. So we have
Julie Smith:
one more question and it’s the hardest question of the whole podcast.
Julie Smith:
But what is your endgame?
Julie Smith:
Boom. You know, I think about that a
Tamina Watson:
lot. You know, I
Tamina Watson:
always thought immigration was my one and only
Tamina Watson:
passion in what I wanted to do.
Tamina Watson:
But bird photography has opened up
Tamina Watson:
a life that I didn’t know I could have. And
Tamina Watson:
I used to say no to a lot of international speaking
Tamina Watson:
opportunities. My kids are little— I mean, now they’re teenagers, but
Tamina Watson:
I was avoiding it. Once I found photography, I was
Tamina Watson:
like, you know, invite me to speak in your country. I’ll go and tell you
Tamina Watson:
everything you need to know about U.S. immigration law, and I’ll bring the birds
Tamina Watson:
back and share them everywhere. That has
Tamina Watson:
become true. And I now make coloring books out of
Tamina Watson:
my photography. The series is called Color Your Joy.
Tamina Watson:
And my new dream is to have a coloring book
Tamina Watson:
for every state and every country I visit, so my bird
Tamina Watson:
photography can convert that way. So I would love to
Tamina Watson:
continue to figure out how I do maybe a little bit more of birding and
Tamina Watson:
a little bit less of law. I don’t know if that will happen, but— My
Tamina Watson:
endgame is to figure out how to do them both and keep them combined.
Tamina Watson:
I have become a board member of the American Birding
Tamina Watson:
Association. I don’t know how that happened. I said, yeah, initially I thought
Tamina Watson:
it was a joke. And then I got an invitation to be on another
Tamina Watson:
birding organization board. And they said to me— I said, how
Tamina Watson:
did you even find me? I’m a relatively new birder. And they said, well, we’re
Tamina Watson:
just searching for lawyers and birders, and you’re the only one who keeps coming up.
Tamina Watson:
So, um, I don’t know. I’m following the journey of life
Tamina Watson:
and I’m trying to make sure that I keep joy
Tamina Watson:
and love as my north star in whatever I do.
Tamina Watson:
And I’ll keep going that way. You answered it perfectly.
Julie Smith:
There is no endgame. You’re just on the journey. You’re just gonna keep going.
Glenn Harper:
You know, it’s funny, everybody has to do their entrepreneurial journey to support all
Glenn Harper:
the other cool stuff that it opens up for them to do. Because if you
Glenn Harper:
had like a real job, and you would go in and go to do it
Glenn Harper:
and check out, you wouldn’t have such a high or such a low.
Glenn Harper:
You probably wouldn’t do birding. You’d probably do something else and you wouldn’t
Glenn Harper:
really find your true passion because you’re not pushed to go find it.
Glenn Harper:
So if we, we call that an enabler, when you’re an entrepreneur, it enables you
Glenn Harper:
to do these other things that are way outside. You never would probably, you probably
Glenn Harper:
would never have done birding if you weren’t doing what you’re doing today. I love
Tamina Watson:
it. You know, it’s such an aha moment for me. I did. I don’t know
Tamina Watson:
if I would’ve thought about it that way, but it’s— you guys have the
Tamina Watson:
entrepreneurship stuff like really nailed down. And
Julie Smith:
we’re just winging it. Don’t, don’t, don’t be fooled over there. This is so much
Glenn Harper:
fun. I don’t believe it. It’s so much fun. Well, we
Glenn Harper:
can’t thank you enough for being on our show. I don’t know if you wanna
Glenn Harper:
give a, a plug to your company and book or what, and your podcast for
Glenn Harper:
listeners. The coloring books. Yeah, the coloring books would be great. Oh my gosh. Thank
Tamina Watson:
you for the opportunity to speak. Speak about this. I don’t always get to talk
Tamina Watson:
about the journey of, of all that we chatted about.
Tamina Watson:
My law firm is watsonimmigrationlaw.com. If people are
Tamina Watson:
trying to start companies, investing in companies, um, trying to
Tamina Watson:
hire their, you know, employees and growing, expanding into the
Tamina Watson:
US, I’m your woman for that. Um, if you want to talk birds,
Tamina Watson:
I can talk your ear off. Um, you can find a lot of my writing,
Tamina Watson:
uh, at my author website. That’s
Tamina Watson:
taminawatson.com. If you wanted to feast your eyes
Tamina Watson:
on beautiful colorful birds, my photography website is
Tamina Watson:
tamina-watson.pixels.com.
Tamina Watson:
But taminawatson.com will have everything. And, you know, I will just
Tamina Watson:
leave people with the fact that wellness is a really
Tamina Watson:
important part of entrepreneurship, but you don’t get to
Tamina Watson:
think about it until you’re on your knees. Because you really just keep going and
Tamina Watson:
going and going until you realize you can’t get up anymore. And then you’re forced
Tamina Watson:
to find something. And that’s how birding came to my life. And now I’m a
Tamina Watson:
big advocate for finding joy. The trick
Glenn Harper:
question, do you know what the Ohio State bird is?
Tamina Watson:
Goldfinch? Cardinal. Cardinal. No, I didn’t know
Tamina Watson:
that. Well, you won’t forget it now. You won’t forget. And our, the famous bird
Glenn Harper:
is the snipe. If you ever look at that, we’ve got that in Ohio, snipe
Glenn Harper:
hunting. So yes. So that’d be fun. Well, thank you. Well,
Glenn Harper:
Tamina, thanks again for being on the show. Always appreciate a great guest. And I
Glenn Harper:
hope this was helpful for you, for you as it was for us. Again, thank
Glenn Harper:
you all for joining us on the Empowering Entrepreneurs Podcast. I’m Glenn Harper. Julie
Julie Smith:
Smith.
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